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Streetracing.co.za • View topic - 20V Silvertop - to rebuild or get a new motor?
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 Post subject: Re: 20V Silvertop - to rebuild or get a new motor?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2015 8:03 pm 
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Local mad scientist
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nice.... :thumb:


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 Post subject: Re: 20V Silvertop - to rebuild or get a new motor?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2015 8:16 am 
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Nice going man!

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 Post subject: Re: 20V Silvertop - to rebuild or get a new motor?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 4:26 pm 
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rookie
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When does the crap end? Upon putting the head on and torqueing it up, some of the bolts don't torque to 30nm and then 90 degrees... Bloody stretch bolts. And nobody has stock. Phoned all the big places, and a few dealerships. Only place that has is R200 / bolt and there are 10 of them. FFS. Dealers also charge R200 per bolt.

Does anyone know where I'd be able to find a normal place that will have stretch bolts that have the same thread etc? It can't be THAT difficult.

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 Post subject: Re: 20V Silvertop - to rebuild or get a new motor?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 4:47 pm 
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as far as I know they do not use stretch bolts...

try FKN16v

I get all my Toy stuff from him... does door to door Currier for cheap cheap tooo


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 Post subject: Re: 20V Silvertop - to rebuild or get a new motor?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 4:53 pm 
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Good afternoon mnr

Not sure if you are looking for a decent set of bolts, but you can reuse the ARP head stud kit, they come with the 5 long studs & 5 short studs, with washers & nuts :thumb:

I called Import Part for you & they have the ARP head studs in stock for R2450, they do not stretch as much as the stock head bolts & people reuse them many times over.

Their number is 011 312 9529 & you can speak to Jerry.

Cheers!
D-MON

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'89 RSi Twincam 16v - 4A-GTE Project - The Toy is a Toy! :twisted:
'06 Honda Accord 2.4 Type S - this is my Slow Family car
'07 Citi .:R - The Daily - EX - No Comment


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 Post subject: Re: 20V Silvertop - to rebuild or get a new motor?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 4:55 pm 
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Link to the ARP site, should you wish to do some additional searching/reading

:thumb:

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'89 RSi Twincam 16v - 4A-GTE Project - The Toy is a Toy! :twisted:
'06 Honda Accord 2.4 Type S - this is my Slow Family car
'07 Citi .:R - The Daily - EX - No Comment


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 Post subject: Re: 20V Silvertop - to rebuild or get a new motor?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 5:58 pm 
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2 Bar BOOST!
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ABE Midas?

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- 1994 Nissan 1400, 4AGZE, SC12 Supercharger, 20v Black top flywheel, T51 gearbox, Spitronics Titan advance ECU, SpeedSpot 4 into 1 branch and 63mm exhaust, 120 wHP, 260 NM on 93 ulp (Uncorrected mechanical dyno).
- 1985 Golf 2 GTS with 2 liter ABF and Spitronics Titan advance.
- 2002 Honda CBR 600 F4i with Stealth exhaust pipe, DNA air filter.
- 1982 Leyland Mini 1275E.


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 Post subject: Re: 20V Silvertop - to rebuild or get a new motor?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 9:14 pm 
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I bought mine from Masterparts for the 16V. not sure if they are the same and if you have them in GP. Also Autozone keep them as well, but didn;t have stock when I checked.

They do use stretch bolts and if it's the OEM ones you can re-use them at least once, there is a thread with the factory manual in it and it shows you how to measure if the bolts are still in spec and if you can re-use them.

Here it is, the 20V one is in there somewhere... viewtopic.php?f=13&t=5282

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 Post subject: Re: 20V Silvertop - to rebuild or get a new motor?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 10:28 pm 
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rookie
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The 20v does is not the same as the 16v. All 10 bolts are equal length. Tried every Midas, Alert, Autozone, random little Toyota places. Only place that has is Gemini @ R200 a bolt. Supreme doesn't stock.

They are stretch bolts unfortunately. And yes, I have the manual and most of the bolts are within spec, but they still don't torque up.

Pain. In. The. Ass.

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 Post subject: Re: 20V Silvertop - to rebuild or get a new motor?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 10:52 pm 
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I read your description again, you say they don't torque up to 30nm and then 90 degrees. Doesn't really make sense.

Do they not torque to 30nm?

Because 90 degrees is 90 degrees, doesn't matter what the torque is, as long as they all went to 30nm then just pull it another 90.

Also I'm sure you do, but make sure you use a good anti seize compound when doing the torque. Something like the nickle based compounds are the best, but copper slip is also ok and at a push some oil if you have to, but never dry.

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 Post subject: Re: 20V Silvertop - to rebuild or get a new motor?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 11:46 pm 
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He used normal oil to lube them up.
Some torque up and the others you torque to 30 and when you turn the 90 it feels like they want to slip past the 90 degrees.

Ek sal try om more vir jou 'n paar plekke te bel. Ek het contacts in Lenasia wat dalk kan help.

_________________
- Daily: 2007 Hyundai Getz CRDI Euro spec (81kw, 235NM)
- 1994 Nissan 1400, 4AGZE, SC12 Supercharger, 20v Black top flywheel, T51 gearbox, Spitronics Titan advance ECU, SpeedSpot 4 into 1 branch and 63mm exhaust, 120 wHP, 260 NM on 93 ulp (Uncorrected mechanical dyno).
- 1985 Golf 2 GTS with 2 liter ABF and Spitronics Titan advance.
- 2002 Honda CBR 600 F4i with Stealth exhaust pipe, DNA air filter.
- 1982 Leyland Mini 1275E.


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 Post subject: Re: 20V Silvertop - to rebuild or get a new motor?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:37 am 
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I think I figured out why the one conrod was bent on that motor.

it was piston #1 rod right?


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 Post subject: Re: 20V Silvertop - to rebuild or get a new motor?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 4:06 pm 
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rookie
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Classic: 1966 Austin Mini 1000 MK1


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 Post subject: Re: 20V Silvertop - to rebuild or get a new motor?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 8:50 pm 
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no, no... false alarm, I was getting Hydraulic lock on #1, and thought it be the head letting in water, but it turned out the block had a crack in #1 cylinder... The head is A100% nothing wrong with that.

was able to get two runs in at Tarlton on a very wet track, and then my oil-pump belt left the building suddenly.... :eek:


As for getting the gearbox back on, be thankful if it is giving you greaf, for if it just clicks on like it's no effort at all, it just means something else much bigger is wrong elsewhere... and you going to end up stripping it all down..... ask me, I have tested this theory and it works, every time... :laughinghard:


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 Post subject: Re: 20V Silvertop - to rebuild or get a new motor?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 9:46 pm 
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And here is the video of it starting and taking a cruise.
It currently only has a 4 into 2 branch on with no exhaust connected.

_________________
- Daily: 2007 Hyundai Getz CRDI Euro spec (81kw, 235NM)
- 1994 Nissan 1400, 4AGZE, SC12 Supercharger, 20v Black top flywheel, T51 gearbox, Spitronics Titan advance ECU, SpeedSpot 4 into 1 branch and 63mm exhaust, 120 wHP, 260 NM on 93 ulp (Uncorrected mechanical dyno).
- 1985 Golf 2 GTS with 2 liter ABF and Spitronics Titan advance.
- 2002 Honda CBR 600 F4i with Stealth exhaust pipe, DNA air filter.
- 1982 Leyland Mini 1275E.


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 Post subject: Re: 20V Silvertop - to rebuild or get a new motor?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2015 4:01 pm 
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rookie
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Finally managed to get the car on the dyno yesterday!

There is still lots to sort out before I can go test it on the track this Sunday, but at least the motor is tuned!

The Silvertop that was in the car before made 72wkw on Clive Densham's dyno. I wanted 80wkw from the new motor. I had Braam at AMS Tuning dyno the car and his dyno is 10-15% stingier than Clive's. So the Silvertop would have made maximum around 65wkw on his dyno. He's never had a Silvertop that made more than 67wkw on the dyno.

We ended with 77wkw on Braam's dyno. So it's a good 12wkw improvement on the old motor and when driving the car it pulls extremely hard from 5000rpm through to the redline! I'm happy with the power, but need to modify the intake a bit to get more torque. It's currently only on 109nm on the wheels.

To summarise what has been done to the motor:

Silvertop block, crank, conrods
Blacktop head (124.28mm deck height), Blacktop pistons, 45mm throttles with trumpets
Oil restrictor in head from 6mm to 2.5mm
Baffled sump
Jasma 38mm branch with custom downpipe into 57mm, then box, then 63mm out.
Copper-button clutch by Norbrake

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Daily: 2008 Honda FR-V 1.8
Race car: AE92 Toyota Conquest (4A-GE 20V ST Bottom-end and BT head and pistons)
Classic: 1966 Austin Mini 1000 MK1


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 Post subject: Re: 20V Silvertop - to rebuild or get a new motor?
PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2015 9:10 am 
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Sounds lekker.

I'm not too clued up with the ST and BT 20 valve engines but what is the average kw power output of these engines?

I know you mentioned a stingy dyno but for some or other reason I have figures of over 100kw in my head. You say the car feels strong then it must be the dam dyno :laughinghard:

Also need to consider that this is at high altitude and not the coast.

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Project - SR5 (in progress)
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Ex 1984 Toyota Corolla
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 Post subject: Re: 20V Silvertop - to rebuild or get a new motor?
PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2015 11:36 am 
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They average around 110-115kw on the flywheel here at the coast for a standard motor. You lose about 20-25% through the drivetrain and at the reef you loose another 18% from the coast.

110-25% = 82.5wkw(wheel kw at the coast)
110-18% = 90fkw(flywheel kw at the reef from coast)
90-25% = 67wkw(wheel kw at the reef)

So that is the figure for a standard motor and corresponds nicely to the most they have ever got for a Silvertop. To go from that to 77kw with the mods he has seems about right and seems perfectly in line with what one would assume he should get. Now consider putting back the 25% to get to the wheels and the 18% to get to the coast

77*(100/75) = 103fkw(wheel to flywheel kw at reef)
103*(100/82) = 125fkw(flywheel kw at coast from reef)
77*(100/82) = 94wkw(wheel kw at coast from reef)

We have to work out the conversion factor since 25% of 77 is not the same as 25% of 103. Same goes for 18% of 103 is not the same as 18% of 125 and so on and so forth.

So doing all those calculations tells you that he got more or less the same increases the guys see here at the coast when they modify the 20V in the same way.

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 Post subject: Re: 20V Silvertop - to rebuild or get a new motor?
PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2015 11:52 am 
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Location: Centurion

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Setting the standards

Project - SR5 (in progress)
2011 Mazda 5
2005 1.6 Hyundai Getz
Ex 2008 Mazda 3
Ex 1984 Toyota Corolla
Ex 2000 3.2 V6 Isuzu Frontier


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 Post subject: Re: 20V Silvertop - to rebuild or get a new motor?
PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2015 5:54 pm 
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rookie
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So much work is going into the car to get it to the stage where it will run within compliance of regulations and reliably for the 2-Hour at Kyalami this weekend!

We planned to go to Midvaal on Sunday, but they had drags on so had to cancel. We'll test the car for the first time on the track on Wednesday afternoon at Zwartkops' open practice.

It was a real mission to bleed the cooling system. Eventually we got it right and I also fitted a 76 degree Celcius thermostat from a Stallion to help on the track. The car now happily idles just under 80 degrees Celcius with the fan on. Haven't driven it much besides around the block and temperature never goes over 80 when driving. Which is a good thing cause on the track you are constantly in high rpms and heat becomes a big issue. We still need to see what the oil temp will get up to on the track. Can't really test that on the road.

Had an oil leak from the distributor and got a new O-ring from Toyota today which seems to have sold the issue.

The car is extremely stiff and we had to replace a few rose-joints on the suspension that had play in it. We took off the powersteering pump as well, so the car is a different beast to drive now. Hopefully everything holds together now!

Here is a little vid of the car pulling to 8000rpm around the block...


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Daily: 2008 Honda FR-V 1.8
Race car: AE92 Toyota Conquest (4A-GE 20V ST Bottom-end and BT head and pistons)
Classic: 1966 Austin Mini 1000 MK1


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