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Streetracing.co.za • View topic - 20V Silvertop - to rebuild or get a new motor?
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 Post subject: 20V Silvertop - to rebuild or get a new motor?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 10:20 am 
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rookie
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I ran a bearing on my 20V Silvertop last week at Zwartkops Raceway. The oil temperature ran at 150 degrees which is the most likely cause for this bearing failure. The car is running an oil cooler, but it just kept on cooking the oil :x

Now, would it be worth it to fix the current motor or get another motor from an import shop and use the current one as a source for future spares?

The crank would need a regrind, and I'll have to redo the head as the heat of the oil boiled the head too. I'll have to get ACL race bearings.

How much would a standard crank be to replace, and where can I get other new engine parts new locally?

Also, I know the Blacktop makes more power, and is a better motor in general, but at the cost difference is it really worth it? I need a reliable motor that can be revved all day long and run on the track for extended periods of time. With the old Alfas you can run the car for hours with no issues :|

I am also in need of a 5-speed RSI gearbox that came with the Blacktop motor. The current gearbox I have is way too long for the track. I only use 2nd and 3rd gear on Zwartkops.

Any help and suggestions would be appreciated. I need to come up with a plan of action asap so I can get back on track! :thumb:

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 Post subject: Re: 20V Silvertop - to rebuild or get a new motor?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 10:31 am 
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Welcome again bro!

You have come to the right place :mrgreen:

Have you done any mods to the engine as yet?

I would suggest that you fit a restrictor to the oil feed coming into the head. Then I'm not sure sharp right hand bends there are in the Zwartkops track, but in long right hand bends the oil moves to the left of the sump away from the pickup & then you suck up air & then end up running bearings...so you would need to get the sump baffled to prevent this from occurring.

The other guys can jump in with more advice :thumb:

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 Post subject: Re: 20V Silvertop - to rebuild or get a new motor?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 10:36 am 
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The ultimate would be a Silvertop bottom end with a Blacktop head and pistons. Then you get stronger rods that won't fluck out on you and you still get the improved flow from the Blacktop head. An engines power comes from it's head and not much else, the rest can only help it rev up slightly faster, but not make more power unless you bore it out, but even that only makes a slight difference in comparison.

I'd go with an import motor, open it up and give it a new set of everything. Also there is a modification we all do to these motors which will help with the bearing failures. On the front of the block exhaust side right by the front most head bolt, there is a oil gallery that supplies oil to the head. These are normally in the 6-7mm size. You tap this hole and fit a grub screw with a 2-3mm hole in it. This restricts the oil flow to the head and keeps more pressure in the bottom end. There's guys who has gone as small as 1.5mm, but I'd stick to something between 2 and 3mm.

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 Post subject: Re: 20V Silvertop - to rebuild or get a new motor?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 10:42 am 
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Someone say run bearings? :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: 20V Silvertop - to rebuild or get a new motor?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 10:43 am 
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rookie
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 Post subject: Re: 20V Silvertop - to rebuild or get a new motor?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 10:48 am 
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2 Bar BOOST!
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D-mon pipped me on that one, he should be working on his car, not playing on the damn forum... :lol:

They do work apparently and the compression is also higher then. But it might be worth it to check and make sure.

Not sure about the costs, but if you look in the for sale section right at the top is a guy FKN16V he supplies genuine parts and ND and other good bearings. He should be able to help you with prices.

Here's some pictures I zopped to show the mod for the oil.
block_clean.jpg
block_clean.jpg [ 285.55 KiB | Viewed 12068 times ]

oilrestrictor.jpg
oilrestrictor.jpg [ 43.02 KiB | Viewed 12070 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: 20V Silvertop - to rebuild or get a new motor?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 11:49 am 
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rookie
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Thanks Boksie!

What oil do you guys run in these motors? I have Liqui Moly 10W40 in at the moment, and it ran the bearing with that.

What would be the best setup to run with these motors reliably? What compression ratio (how much skim/which gasket)? How high should I rev it? (Revved 8000RPM before). ACL bearings or normal bearings?

What power should these motors make on 95 octane fuel at the reef?

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 Post subject: Re: 20V Silvertop - to rebuild or get a new motor?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 12:15 pm 
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We run Caltex 20W50 Havoline or Mobil XHP 20W50(if you can still get it).

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 Post subject: Re: 20V Silvertop - to rebuild or get a new motor?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 12:27 pm 
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rookie
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 Post subject: Re: 20V Silvertop - to rebuild or get a new motor?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 2:07 pm 
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I'd buy the blacktop, but fit Silvertop or Series 3 16V rods at least.

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 Post subject: Re: 20V Silvertop - to rebuild or get a new motor?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 2:27 pm 
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also try staying away from the blacktop oil pump. it uses a hydraulic tensioner which is just expensive and sometimes do fail for no apparent reason. im possitive that u will be able to build a great motor form ur silvertop spares and buying a blacktop motor

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 Post subject: Re: 20V Silvertop - to rebuild or get a new motor?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 2:34 pm 
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rookie
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 Post subject: Re: 20V Silvertop - to rebuild or get a new motor?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 3:59 pm 
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it was not the Oil-temp! it was turns 5 and 6 ...

your pressure dropped to 0 through those 2 corners and they are 7K-RPM+ corners, as you can't go up a gear for the next corner is right onto you.

it happens every time....

baffling won't help all that much, I have tried that.

you need to go hard-core on the sump for it to survive the Z... :picsstfu:



:mrgreen:

if you can get both at the same price, it would depend on whether that "same price" is that of a BT or a ST.... if it is at the ST's price-point, I Would Buy both ...

if it was at the BT's price, I would not bother with the ST, way too much if you pay BT price for a ST.


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 Post subject: Re: 20V Silvertop - to rebuild or get a new motor?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 4:10 pm 
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rookie
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 Post subject: Re: 20V Silvertop - to rebuild or get a new motor?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 4:28 pm 
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here is my oil pressure graph after the Drysump mod.



the problem with 6-spd boxes are that it's now 6 set's of gears that gets squeezed into the same depth as for 5... so they are all thinner, and therefor weaker...

to give you an indication of pricing on anything dry sump.... that red thing... it's more than the motor.... :eek:
the pipes and fittings... also more than the motor... :eek: :eek:


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 Post subject: Re: 20V Silvertop - to rebuild or get a new motor?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 4:36 pm 
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U are running a 4afe gearbox on that car. that is why the gears are so long. prob get around 170 in 3rd gear if im correct. The 6 speed had a very weak Crown wheel which cracks under allot of load. thats the most common issue with the 6 shooters.


Rods will be a straight fit, but they will need a re size which will decrease ur compression ever so slightly as well

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 Post subject: Re: 20V Silvertop - to rebuild or get a new motor?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 4:43 pm 
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rookie
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 Post subject: Re: 20V Silvertop - to rebuild or get a new motor?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 9:14 pm 
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2 Bar BOOST!
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Everything on any 4AGE fits on any other 4AGE, doe4sn't matter if it's 20V or 16V, with the exception that the 20V has a different sump to the 16V if you run one or the other block you have to also us it's sump, otherwise everything else is interchangeable.

Fit the oil restricter, 88RSi on here did that and I doubt he runs any baffling and he ran very low times at the Z with no issues.

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 Post subject: Re: 20V Silvertop - to rebuild or get a new motor?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 9:46 pm 
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rookie
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 Post subject: Re: 20V Silvertop - to rebuild or get a new motor?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 10:14 pm 
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2 Bar BOOST!
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[quote="alfaquad"

Are the Blacktop rods really that flimsy?[/quote]


I suppose you can pick your teeth with them if you want, but other than that they aren't much use for anything else. :lol:

They are kak, and believe me if I tell you everyone who has given them a chance got a bloody nose because of it...

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